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(note to editor: one camera will be numbered without alphabet;

second camera will be numbered with a B after the number for sync

beeps - camera roll 11 or at least the discreet numbers 11, 12

and 13 will be numbered with a single beep, and the second camera

will have two beeps, each of them will be seperately synced.)

Your holiness, the last time we met you told me of being chosen

Dalai Lama at the age of two and the process that it was done.

How can we know now about your growing up. What was it like

growing up being the ..... by millions of Tibetans, what was your

childhood like? Were you ever frightened of all this

responsibility you had.

No. Yes, I think there is sometimes. you see, slight, how do you

say, sort of hesitation, say, is it good for, is it taking some

decision, and I have to think from the positive side, from the

negative side and also listen to others' views.

HOW OLD WERE YOU WHEN YOUR RELIGIOUS EDUCATION BEGAN, RELIGIOUS

TRAINING?

Now, I think, as you know, you see in early childhood I think

there is 6, 7 we started you see. At that time mainly you learn

by heart. You know in Tibetan tradition as in Indian tradition,

the root text which endorse something, you see, important in

text, these usually we learn by heart. Then you see is later

commemntary - these we read. So I think 6, 7, from that age I

started to learn by heart. Then you see, serious study, ah how

do you say - metaphysics, you say the way dialect - ......

dialectic, you say, debating.

DEBATING.

You see that. I think around 11 or 12 years of my age, started.

THIS WAS A VERY INTENSIVE TRAINING YOU WENT THROUGH AND I

REMEMBER YOU TELLING ME ONCE BEFORE THAT YOU WERE PRETTY BRIGHT.

YOU ENJOYED THIS TRAINING - YOU WERE PRETTY CLEVER. I'M

WONDERING, THOUGH, DID YOU HAVE TIME TO PLAY? DID YOU HAVE TIME

TO ENJOY YOURSELF, HAVE FUN, GAMES?

Not much.

NOT MUCH.

Not much. I think my game - game .... play, I think at that

time, the place - how to say - secluded, you see. I not much

seek relation or mixing with other people except, you see, my

..... what you call - attendant.

ATTENDANTS.

Attendants. They all you see, elder people. But one thing -

these days I feel sort of is a surprise. That is when I was - I

was small but those you see my what you say, my playmate was

elder people. But they very good player. (chuckles)

I SEE.

Do you see? Almost act like you see, my same age. ....... But

ah - the main see, the - I don't know how to say - you see, game,

you say making by, you say, hand - is sometimes drawing,

sometimes, you see, ah I don't know how to say - animals or

birds, making by - you know you say -

CRAFTS.

In Tibetan ...............

WHAT'S THAT?

What you say frosted - ah roasted - roasted bali and make powder.

You see that is very good - of course is very good for tired, and

also very good to make you ...... things. This is sort of you

see, monastery or a house or animals, different kinds of animals,

different kind of people. I was very fond to make these kind of

thing.

I HEARD ONE TIME THAT YOU FOUND A COUPLE OF CARS THERE THAT HAD

BELONOGED TO A PREVIOUS DALAI LAMA AND YOU WORKED ON THEM,

REPAIRED THEM, AND YOU DROVE THEM AROUND THE PALACE YARD. NOT

TOO ACCURATELY EITHER. IS THAT STORY TRUE?

(LAUGHTER) Yes. Sometimes I really - now you see I feel, oh,

really dangerous in some cases now. You see stuck or you see, on

wall or sometimes you see, the doors, like that. And many - many

occasions is damage. But sometimes - that time you see I needed

to hide some of these, you see, damaged, damaaged part from - how

do you say - my diver - because at that time is my particular

diver is very short tempered person. (chuckles) If he saw is

something wrong due to my drive - without his permission - he

may get angry. (laughter)

WELL, YOU HAVE SO MUCH JOY IN YOU ALL THE TIME. THIS IS THE

SECOND TIME NOW THAT I MET YOU AND YOU SEEM TO BE SO FULL OF JOY

AND SO FULL OF HAPPINESS THAT I THINK YOU MUST HAVE A WONDERFUL

SENSE OF HUMOUR FIRST OF ALL, AND SECONDLY THAT YOU DO ENJOY

PLAYFULNESS - HAPPINESS. AND IT'S INTERESTING TO CONTRAST THIS

WIWTH YOUR LIFE BECAUSE IT HAS NOT BEEN A HAPPY LIFE.

I WOULD LIKE TO MOVE TO 1950 WHEN CHINA INVADED TIBET. NOW IN

ORDER TO GET THE BEST DEAL FOR YOUR PEOPLE YOU WENT TO CHINA TO

TALK TO MAO TSE TUNG. HE SAID HE WAS VERY IMPRESSED WITH YOU.

HOW DID YOU FEEL ABOUT HIM?

At that time my impression was no doubt he was a great leader, a

freedom fighter - how to say - revolutionary leader, no doubt.

In his personal, let's say, behaviour, when we used to meeting,

or talk, or you see when we sit together dining sometimes -

dining -

EATING.

Eating, yes - he - how you say - very calm and gentle. And

especially when he speak you see, his voice not very strong and

speak very gently and very slowly and word which he pick is very

effective. That is my impression.

YOU MUST HAVE HAD -

And of course he ah - how you say - I learn certain things from

him.

WHAT SORT OF THINGS WOULD THAT BE?

You see, how to deal with people and how to listen, you see, the

people's different opinion. And then at the lastt, and then you

see, how to make - how to take a decision after listening to

different views - that kind of, you see, advice - very useful.

YOU MUST HAVE HOPED AT THAT TIME THEN THAT CONDITIONS WOULD

IMPROVE, WOULD BE BETTER, BECAUSE OF YOUR MEETING WITH MAO.

Yes that's right. That was '54, '55. You know, you see before

Chinese communist came ah the ah you see, we have ah - in fact no

contact with other foreigner - very little, very little. Ah then

when Chinese came they of course you know in '50 there is some

fight you see, on the border area. But then you know the Chinese

forces came. Naturally you see every Tibetan very much anxious.

Then you see we went to Peking to meet - how you say - meeting

with various leaders there. That was the - how you say - I think

the best period have closer relation with Chinese leaders. Then

around '56, '57, things changed.

YES. TELL ME ABOUT THOSE YEARS, THE YEARS BEFORE YOUR EXILE.

WHAT WERE THEY LIKE?

You see, '55, I think summer I returned, summer of '55 I

returned. Then end of that year, you see, the open revolt

started from eastern part of Tibet. Then you see that revolt

opened, you see - how you say - revolt - or how do you say -

violence spread out from one place to another place, like that.

Then '56 I come to India for Buddhist celebration, 2,500 years

you see, Buddhist celebration. Then you see, inside Tibet things

are becoming, you see, more how do you say, you say darker and

darker and darker, more complicated things. Things become like

that.

OKAY WE'RE GOING TO STOP FOR JUST A MOMENT WHILE WE RELOAD THE

CAMERA.

DL8&9

MAN ALIVE

'DALAI LAMA '84'

ROLLS 8, 9

CAMERA ROLLS 12 AND 12B.

(BACKGROUND TALKING)

If you have, you see, ..... then shot longer and edit.

THAT'S RIGHT.

That's much better.

30 MINUTES, YES. THE LAST PROGRAM, THE CANADIAN PEOPLE REALLY

ENJOYED IT. WE HAD A LARGE AUDIENCE FOR IT. A LOT OF GOOD

REACTION.

......

OKAY.

(PROMPTING)

SYNC.

SYNC. SYNC.

THESE YEARS JUST BEFORE YOUR EXILE MUST HAVE BEEN VERY

FRUSTRATING ONES FOR YOU PERSONALLY AND FOR YOUR PEOPLE. YOU

DIDN'T REALLY KNOW WHAT THE CHINESE WERE DOING, WHETHER YOU

COULD TRUST WHAT THEY SAID OR NOT.

Yes, that's right. So around '56 I came to India, and with the

invitation by the Indian government. At that time I have a

strong desire to make pilgrimage in India. And while, you see,

we were in India, the Chinese, then the prime minister, late

prime minister, Mr. Chou en Lai, came to India. And then you see

inside situation becoming more and more what do you call,

deteriorated. Then we . . at that time, one of the . . one of

the most difficult period to me is how to make final decision.

This is some people say - you see, Chinese, day by day, month by

month, is becoming more aggressive nature. Don't listen to

reasons and completely you see, how do you say, ignore the

reality by that. So it is, rather it is better to remain in

India than return. See one, some people have that kind of

opinion. And then some people and including the Indian prime

minister, the Pandit Nehru, who really was a later . . later is

'59, greatly helped . . all . . At that time he had opinion,

still better - you see, better - Gorbet or Tibet - and deal with

Chinese, you see, directly, on the basis of what say, this 17

point agreement. Somehow I finally decided I - you see - return.

Then things are, you see, becoming now is very tense. . . But

one good thing, now I recall, that is - you see then one way that

things are very very dangerous and . . .

YES, YES.

Meantime, I continuously study for my final examination. So at

that time I think, my whole energy, one way to . . study in order

to get better mark. Final examination. One way, you see, very

very, what you say, anxious to deal with Chinese. Now there you

see one way, I know you see, open broken with Chinese. You see

very dangerous. In the meantime, I know . . the Tibetan people .

. their frustration or what you say . .

FRUSTRATION.

So that is the most difficult period.

A VERY DIFFICULT PERIOD. WHEN YOU FINALLY DID ESCAPE AFTER THE

CHINESE INVADED AND YOU ESCAPED TO INDIA WITH ABOUT 100,000 I

BELIEVE, THAT WAS REALLY TO AVOID A BLOODBATH.

But now, how to say, this - then around '57 or '58, in these two

years, a very delicate and . . very . . very delicate time.

Then '59, you see, my final examination - say to place - in

February '59. Then the uprising happened. It has itself - it

was March 1959. And even then I try my best you see to calm down

this situation. And next few days, I try my best, one way. Even

I sensed some . . . how do you say some peculiar letter under

that circumstances to Chinese general. Try to at least to some,

you see some, how to say . . . cooler thing. And the one way I

talk with the Tibetan . . Tibetans . . Then the I think 17th -

... 17th . . . the date, exact date. You see Chinese, you see

every, day by day, every signs as if to bombard the place where I

remain because there was many thousands you see Tibetan are

gathered there. And they believe they are protecting me.

THAT'S RIGHT.

But in reality, to gather one place is very dangerous, isn't it?

There is Chinese, you see, every, you see, day, comparatively use

modern munitions, have some big guns like that. Put them inside

. . . So is the final thing. And finally we see that. Then . .

every indication now things will how you say, it will become open

-

THAT'S RIGHT.

Bit. So the last moment, I decided now better to escape. And I

escaped.

HAVE YOU ANY ESTIMATE AS TO HOW MANY TIBETANS HAVE DIED

PREMATURELY SINCE 1950?

Yes, according to Chin-- at that time - no, yes. Then, you see,

the - after - one or two days since I left, then you see Chinese

bombarded -

YES.

I know many people is killed like that. So now the casualty -

then - sometime later, you see we got a Chinese document from a -

one Chinese military personnel. In it they mentioned that from

March '59, September '60, around Hassa area, the people who

killed through military action are there number is 87,000.

JUST IN THAT SHORT PERIOD OF TIME.

Yes. So now you see - actual fighting broke around the end of

'55. That is - of the ..... of fighting ... remained till '63 in

the sense of larger scale. So - and also now you see for the -

how you say - .... population, the other part of Tibet, not isn't

part of Tibet and isn't part of Tibet, this area, this is more

heavier to support the populated area. So not - we believe about

well over 200,000 people killed through military action. Now is

a letter - Now ..... since you see the people coming from Tibet

with how you say with Chinese permission, although very great -

very difficult to get permisson, the Chinese always you see give

onoe of their, is a family member, as a hostage, that kind of

thing. Even then some people now is coming from Tibet in order

to meet their relative. And equally is the Tibetan from outside,

you see, allowed to visit relative in Tibet. Now through this -

now we've got more detailed information. So now although not

cover all Tibet, but those is the places up to now we covered I'd

say.. . no . . we get information. Say, 1.2 millions Tibetan -

Tibetan, you see.

WOULD THIS INCLUDE THOSE THAT DIED FROM STARVATION?

Yes, majority is starvation.

STARVATION, YES.

You see, more than half is starvation. You see, in previous,

there was no such a report. I mean there is no report of

starvation. Maybe you see one or two person one day you see

travelling on you see how to say, fled to these places. Maybe is

possible, otherwise there is food, always plenty.

YES, UNHEARD OF. AFTER YOU ESCAPE INTO INDIA WITH YOUR

FOLLOWERS, IT WAS VERY HARD TO MAKE A TRANSITION, WASN'T IT, TO

THE AREA, TO THE LAND, TO THE DIFFRENCE IN CLIMATE, THE DIFFERENT

IN ALTITUDE. A VERY BAD TIME FOR YOU THERE, WASN'T IT?

Right. Of course, you see, being a refuge always is difficult.

But it is fortunately the India, we have very close relation for

so many centuries. In any case, you see despite that close . .

contact, Indida's plains heat - very uncomfortable for Tibetan.

YES.

So in any case now, since then, you say, we . . as soon as we

become refugee, now our main responsibiity is lying in two

fields. One is in economic field - self support. And one, you

see, preservation of Tibetan identity, Tibetan culture.

OKAY. PAUSE A MOMENT HERE, TO CHANGE REELS.

(Start of Camera Rolls 13 and 13B)

SYNC.

YOU HAVE WORKED TIRELESSLY FOR YOUR PEOPLE IN INDIA TO HELP THEM

ADAPT TO THE MODERN WORLD. THE WESTERN VIEW OF TIBETAN BUDDHISM,

IT IS A MORE PASSIVE RELIGION, ILLUSORY SORT OF FAITH. NOW

OBVIOUSLY THIS IS A WRONG VIEW. IT MUST NOT BE TRUE, BECAUSE YOU

HAVE WORKED SO HARD TO - TO DEAL WITH THE REALITY OF THINGS. SO

I GUESS WE HAVE THE WRONG VIEW OF BUDDHISM, PERHAPS.

I think so.

IT IS NOT PASSIVE, AS WE THINK.

Yes. My own experience . . the true . . it gives you more .....,

more courage, more determination.

I UNDERSTAND THAT THE--

One ... said to us, they stabilize one's own mind. So they say,

though of course they say sometimes occasionaly there's a small

irritation, small anger, may come. But it will not last. So

it's a mentality, mentally, always you see the main staple. So

this very helpful to deal with this situation.

SEE, WE TEND TO THINK OF BUDDHISM AS NON-ATTACHMENT. I

UNDERSTAND THE HART SUTRA TALKS SPECIFICALLY ABOUT NON-

ATTACHMENT, EMPTINESS. IS THAT TRUE? EXPLAIN THAT TO ME.

I . .

THE HART SUTRA.

You see, non-attachment in the sense now - you see your wealth,

your wealth, your money, or how you say, your belongings, your

friends - is attachment. In certain - here I think -

MATERIAL - MATERIAL THINGS?

. . . English. In any case, I will try. Now this attachment

towards these object with you say strong, what to say, sort of

desire or . . desire or some - some mental definement. You see

that kind of attachment, you see, we try to, how you say, to less

-

LESSEN.

And of course you see one practitioner - practitioner you see

usually eliminates this kind of you see attachment. But this

does not mean, you see, you - forget or disregard these things.

Now thing - now you see and desire. There are two kinds of

desire. One something and worthwhile to - how you say - to think

or to wish - that kind of desire is right. Now for example,

desire is . . all sentient beings have you see happiness,

permanent, you see, mental happiness, or desire to achieve

Buddhahood, you see, Nirvana or liberation - that kind of desire

is the right type of desire. There is another desire which

actually, as I mentioned earlier you see, very much influenced by

the I think emotional, kind of is emotion. You see that kind of

desire, not unreasonable, not un-- self awareness. Now that kind

of desire is . . .

Now you, also as you mentioned about the what you say the

emptiness of whiteness. Now that - is a complicated matter and a

very important matter. Now - now when we say - non-existence -

that - the basic meaning is non-self-existence. Now things are

there, but does not exist by itself. Now things exist due to

other factor. So you see, .......... So when - when we getting

anger or attachment, you see, these emotional feelings comes.

That time, the object which you feel, you see, anger or you feel

attachment, you see, that object appear as a independent solid

entity. You see that - not reality - in reality interdependent,

some related thing. But that moment appear like independent, so

you see, that - that kind of appearance and feeling of that kind

of thing is the basis for all the mental definement. Once you

know that things are - I mean good is good, bad is bad, still

relatively, things exist in relative way. That reduce the

emotional side of feeling. But the feeling with reason, that

intact. But - not . . . on it.

IT SOMETIMES IS DIFFICULT FOR THE WESTERN MIND TO GRASP THE

SUBTLETIES OF BUDDHISM WHERE THERE IS NO CONCEPT OF GOD OR

CREATOR. YOU TALK INSTEAD OF THE STRIVING FOR ENLIGHTENMENT.

WHAT IS THE ESSENCE OF ENLIGHTENMENT?

Enlightenment . . Now . . Buddhist thing is . . now we - every

sentient being, not only human being, all sentient being, has the

clear light. Now I think that is the consciousness. Now we have,

whatever you give a name or the word - but there is some force or

some energy which - which .... things. You see, either ... from

experience or - experience or is seeing(?). There is some, one

kind of, you see, I don't know, one kind of, you see, energy or

some power which - which - which is, I mean, .... or ... They

actually see energy of noa. You see that we call consciousness.

YES.

For example, the eye consciousness, ear consciousness - with a

certain physical form, physical in part, there - due to these

factor, there will - special kind of consciousness create. Now

that knows the thing. Now - now within that level, the

consciousness, now there are different levels of consciousness.

Now some consciousness - for example, at this moment, they're

experiencing. Certain consciousness when you are you see asleep,

with dream, that time, a certain level of consciousness

experiencing. Now furthermore, you see, deep sleep without

dream. That moment the further deeper consciousness experience.

Now go like this - when is a person faint completely, even stop

breathing, that moment we experience further deeper

consciousness. Then is the deepest when people dying. At that

time they will experience the deepest consciousness. You see

that consciousness is the most subtle consciousness. And we call

the innermost subtle - innermost subtle consciousness and

sometimes call clear light.

CLEAR LIGHT.

Now that is with - from Buddhist viewpoint, we call that is the

Buddhist .... Its nature - there is all - how to say -

potential - potential to know everything. So once you see that

potential fully developed, that is enlightened.

IS THIS PATH TO ENLIGHTENMENT A DIFFICULT ONE?

Of course difficult. You see mental development - that is not

easy, but is some possible thing. Now you see training - now for

example, is education. Actually . . .

SYNC. (LONG)

(THIS IS MAN ALIVE, DALAI LAMA, INTERVIEW, NOW SOUND ROLL 9,

CAMERA ROLL 14 AND 14B)

SYNC.

SYNC. SYNC.

OKAY? YOUR HOLINESS, WHAT ARE THE BENEFITS OF PRACTICING

MEDITATION?

Beside - a practitioner. I think it's the people who are making

some business or normal work. It would help. Now, you see,

meditate one's own, how to say, inner feeling, or sometimes is to

meditate on - this is kind of difficult to realize or recognize,

but try to meditate on consciousness itself. On this help to

sharpen your mind, and it also gives you some help to increase

your power of memory.

IT INCREASES YOUR POWER OF MEMORY.

Yes.

AND IT--

It's not ... the religious practice but simply sort of as

exercise of mind.

I HAVE HEARD THAT SOME YOGIS HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DEVELOP INCREDIBLY

INTERESTING ABIITIES - CLAIRVOYANCE, FOR EXAMPLE, TELEPATHY, TO

REMOVE THE BODY FROM CONSCIOUSNESS. AND YET WHEN I MENTION IT,

NOBODY SEEMS TO WANT TO TALK ABOUT THAT. NONE OF THE MONKS WANT

TO TALK ABOUT THAT. WHY IS THAT?

I think . . no doubt it is difficult to practice these things.

But there are - now is my generation in Tibet, the previous in

Tibet, also some people who have some extraordinary experiences.

Now even today - now in India, there are some people who are, you

see, gain some extraordinary experience through their yoga

practice as .... or meditate like that.

SO IT DOES HAPPEN, IT IS HAPPENING.

Yes. And when they - they you see practice, the meditation

practice increase, the power of meditation practice increase,

their health also improving.

IT IMPROVES.

I noticed.

I WAS WONDERING--

Mental stability is something - something special, very good.

I WAS WONDERING IF PERHAPS TALKING ABOUT IT PUTS SOME HINDRANCE

ON TO IT SO - MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T TALK ABOUT. I DON'T KNOW.

NOBODY SEEMS TO WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT. MONKS. BUT HOW ABOUT YOU

- DO YOU HAVE THESE ABILITIES?

No, no.

YOU DON'T.

You see, the main reason is I have no, you see, no time to

practice on these you see meditation, sumati - one ... of mind.

For that, you see, you need complete isolation place, at least

you see some time. So up to now, is impossible, I have no time.

But I wish, you see, sometime I get is it time, enough time, to

practice these things.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAS HAPPENED BECAUSE OF THE REFUGEES,

TIBETAN REFUGEES, AND YOUR EXILE, IS THAT IT HAS - YOU'VE HAD TO

ADAPT TO THE WAYS OF THE WESTERN WORLD. DOES THIS CHANGE

BUDDHISM THEN? HAVE WE NOW A DIFFERENT KIND OF BUDDHISM?

No, I don't think. Now, as any other religion, Buddhism deal

with basic human problem, and that is death - old age, birth,

illness. Now these are the basic human suffering. So is so long

this is basic suffering is the same, and so long these things are

there, the value of Dalai Lama also will remain.

WILL REMAIN.

You see, now these basic suffering - as far as basic suffering is

concerned, you see, a thousand years back and today, you see, not

much differences.

BUT SOME THINGS HAVE CHANGED, AND THE OUTWARD APPEARANCES HAVE

CERTAINLY CHANGED. THE DRESS HAS CHANGED IN THE YOUNG PEOPLE,

THEY'RE DOING DIFFERENT THINGS.

Now you see certain things definitely they have changed. Now for

example, you see Buddhism, which flourished in Tibet, .....

originally come from India. You see Indian Buddhism, but when

you see that teaching is a - reached certain new place, then

some sort of adaptation with the new environment, new culture.

So gradually in certain level, how to say, the local culture, the

local environment, somehow, you see. What to say. Hm. I mean,

is a mix.

MIX.

So you see we call it Tibetan Buddhism. So in the future, I you

see always express the ..... western Buddhism - that kind -

American Buddhism or European Buddhism, that kind of things you

see will happen.

DO YOU SEE CHRISTIANITY--

That now you see - the culture part, culture part - so - there is

a teaching side and a cultural side. These are two things. So

the culture side will change, but the teachings itself remain.

This I believe.

DO YOU SEE CHRISTIANITY AND BUDDHISM GROWING CLOSER TOGETHER,

Oh yes.

AND IF SO, HOW IS THIS - HOW WILL THIS HAPPEN? FOR EXAMPLE--

One thing --

YOU'VE MET WITH THE POPE, FOR EXAMPLE.

I know one thing, you see, due to more contact. That is it gives

you the others - other beliefs and other teachings. You get more

knowledge about the other teaching.

RIGHT.

So naturally it - how to say - it made difference to look with

that. Then once you come to closer relation, then you will find

the special quality in each of these. So something very useful

for - take from other religion, adopt or use in one's own

religiono. Now for example, and there are certain things which

Buddhists can learn from Christian experience, similarly as a

Christian can learn certain things from Buddhist teaching. So

you see that also is one - one reason to become closer. Then

another thing is - I think it's the world circumstance itself.

Now is it telling us it is highly necessary to have greater unity

and contribute for benefit of all mankind from various spiritual

teaching.

HAS THERE NOT BEEN SOME EXCHANGE OF MONKS BETWEEN THE CATHOLIC

CHURCH AND THE BUDDHIST FAITH?

You mean -

WELL, DIDN'T THEY EXCHANGE MONKS?

Yes. Now in the last few years we - as a matter of fact, you

see, some Tibetan monk visited some Catholic monastery. They

remain you see few weeks and living together, you see, eating

together, meditate together. It's a great experience. And

similarly, some Christian monk, they came to a Tibetan monastery

and they remained you see some time, being - how to say -

exchanging experiences. It is very very helpful, very helpful.

YOU HAVE ALWAYS BEEN INTERESTED IN TECHNOLOGY, I KNOW. AND YOU

VISITED HIROSHIMA, WHICH IS PERHAPS THE MOST HORRIBLE EXAMPLE OF

WHAT TECHNOLOGY CAN DO. WHAT ARE YOUR VIEWS? ARE WE ALWAYS

GOING TO BE ON THE EDGE OF THIS DESTRUCTION, OR CAN WE DO

SOMETHING ABOUT THE NUCLEAR RACE?

Yes. That . . is the nuclear threat. That is something really,

you see, a matter which everybody should - should concern. Now

it is a question of - you see, one nation or two - I mean, this

nation or that nation, you see, ..... is a question of protocol.

Now, I think ........ time when war happen, there is - is a one

party winner, is one party loser. Today if something happen,

then in both cases, I think very very near to ruin, you see, to

both sides. So now this is now a question of survive the entire

humanity. And this is really a serious matter. Now I always

feel, of course, you see, every human on this planet have

responsibility, you see, to avoid or to overcome this danger. No

doubt, I mean - like me, you see, who practice ...... We have

special responsibility, and equally the all - different people,

especially the leaders, the politicians, they're equally, you

see, heavy responsibility. Now that - for that reason now, I

have opinion. Now we today, we are lacking this basic human -

human contact. I mean contact on the level of basic you see

human nature. I mean, you see, the - despite the different

ideology or different system, that basically we all are same

human brother sisters, and whether we like each other or not,

whether we like it or not, each other, we - the situation is we

have to live together. So you see the - how to say - the

constant meeting or contact between various different leader

without involved, you see, these . . .

(START OF CAMERA ROLL 15 AND 15B)

SYNC.

SYNC. SYNC.

Especially . .

OKAY.

Especially as - world leaders. I feel they are lacking human

contact. I mean, you see, I wish, you see, my, my prayer is

without complicated agenda, simply, you see, meet together and

sort of you see introduce oneself as another human

brother/sisters. And let them know each other, and to grow - you

see human feeling. It will help to create mutual trust, you see.

It will help to clear this suspicion, distrust.

SEE THEM GET TOGETHER MORE AND TALK TO EACH OTHER.

Once, you see, that kind of feeling, you see, comes, then I feel

much easier you see to talk these sophisticated and complicated

business. And much much is helpful to get, how to say, the good

agreement. Now this is how I feel.

IT SEEMS ALSO, IT SEEMS TO ME TO BE A LACK IN COMMON SENSE.

COMMON SENSE TELLS YOU NOT TO KEEP BUILDING THESE NUCLEAR PILES

ALL THE TIME BECAUSE SOMEBODY'S GOING TO BLOW UP.

That's right.

LET'S REDUCE THEM.

That's right.

DOESN'T HAPPEN THAT WAY.

Now at the moment, they, what to call, the deterrent, you see,

that method. Of course, you see, in some work, but definitely it

is not an alternative. You see alternative while, you see, that

policy there, it is very absolutely necessary, you see, to create

you see another alternative. That only you see - I feel you see,

the genuine brother/sisterhood on the basis of love and kindness.

A clear realization, all human beings, are the same and the same

type, we have to live together, and this is the planet. Now this

I believe. I think . . if we determine, you see, how to keep

this kind of ..... I think things will change.

YOU HAVE ALWAYS SAID YOU WILL GO BACK TO TIBET. HAS THERE BEEN

ANY INDICATION FROM THE CHINESE WHEN THIS MIGHT HAPPEN?

... Chinese inviting. Some time back I thought around '85 might

be appropriate time to make short visit. Now you see at the

moment, the permanent return - I mean not at all now, you see.

You see they - to think at this moment - you see at this moment,

I not think about that. The reason is - now, as you know, I

always express so long Tibetan people, you see, unhappy, you see,

in deep down great dissatisfaction and ..... I mean is there - I

can serve much better from outside. So the general situation is

still ... like that. But I'm talking a short visit. So that -

now you see, next year, if you see, things are how to say

favourable, and I want to make short visit - but at the moment

not certain.

NO. WHAT - WHAT THINGS WOULD HAVE TO BE FAVOURABLE?

The mainly, the Chinese side. I mean they - would say all those

.... things are broadly speaking improving. But within that

period, again now, sometimes - I am talking this way, sometimes

showing that kind of thing. Still, you see, uncertain as ....

YOU'VE BEEN TO WASHINGTON RECENTLY. CAN YOU TELL US ANYTHING

ABOUT THAT? IS THERE ANY NEWS THAT YOU HEARD THERE THAT'D BE

GOOD NEWS FOR YOU OR THE TIBETAN PEOPLE?

No special. I just went there merely as some of my old friends,

some congressmen, some senator, that they invited. I went there.

And they knew you see my old friendship.

NO NEWS.

So this is the main reason.

YOUR PEOPLE HAVE SUFFERED ENORMOUSLY, I KNOW. AND IT'S DIFFICULT

FOR US TO KNOW WHAT THE AVERAGE PERSON CAN DO TO HELP TIBETAN

PEOPLE. NOW, FOR THE MOST PART, THE WORLD HAS SORT OF TURNED A

BLIND EYE TO THE SITUATION. I KNOW YOU'VE DONE YOUR VERY BEST

AND TRIED TO GET THE WORD OUT, BUT THEY HAVE REALLY IGNORED THEM

TO A GREAT EXTENT. WHAT CAN THE AVERAGE INDIVIDUDAL DO TO HELP

THE TIBETAN PEOPLE?

I really ..... You see thing are - now the basic thing is well,

now not on, how to say, reason and logic, but mainly the power

and money. You see, that is very very unfortunate. And this is

the situation remain forever . . . Not good. In any case now,

for the time being, the people, they - I think - how to say -

they generally - you see people - how to say - very very little

knowledge about what is happened there in Tibet and what kind of

situation is happening, and about the past history and one basic

question is there is a historical relation with our neighbours,

especially the relation, the very nature of relation between

Tibet and China is something very peculiar. So these I think is

the people, is especially I mean those - how to say - how to say

history and people who are taking interest in different aspect of

culture - now those people - I - how to say - I wish they know

better.

SO IF WE LEARN MORE ABOUT THE SITUATION, LEARN MORE ABOUT YOUR

HISTORY, LEARN MORE PERHAPS ABOUT BUDDHISM.

Right.

WOULD YOU LIKE THAT? AND THEN WE'D HAVE A BETTER UNDERSTANDING,

WOULD BE ABLE TO DO SOMETHING, MAYBE. KNOWLEDGE IS ALWAYS THE

WAY TO START, ISN'T IT?

Right.

WHEN YOU GO BACK, YOU'RE - WHEN YOU DO GO BACK, YOU'RE GOING TO

FIND THAT IT HAS CHANGED A GREAT DEAL, WON'T YOU?

Right.

WHAT DO YOU THINK SOME OF THOSE CHANGES MIGHT BE?

Now - you know - our liberator, you see, completely destroyed the

old structure. But meantime completely failed to introduce new

meaningful way of life or meaningful society or stature. Now

that is the greatest failure. So is a people, you see, actually

I mean lost the meaning of society, meaning of individual. That

is a great pity, not only in case of Tibet, but in China proper

is the thing - that things happen. Although in China, because

the middle kingdom - the middle kingdom unfortunately never find

middle part. Sometimes it's extreme right, sometimes extreme

left. Recently I saw one small article and it mentioned in

China, even past is not certain

THAT'S TRUE, THAT'S TRUE, ISN'T IT.

That's very unfortunate.

I WOULD SUSPECT THAT ONE THING THAT WILL NOT HAVE CHANGED WILL BE

THE DETERMINATION OF THE PEOPLE AND THE STRENGTH OF THEIR FAITH.

IT SEEMS TO ME--

Yes, that's right. In Tibet ... faith is concerned I think most

are ..... because of the Chinese systematic destruction. That

makes it counterproductive. And nationalism - very strong. I

can say is more than 95% absolute loyal our own culture, our own

race, our own community. So I always believe so long human

determination remain there, things will change.

WHEN YOU GO BACK, WILL YOU LET US COME ALONG WITH YOU TO FILM--

Oh, of course. You see, I - one person who now fully - how to

say - realized the ancient - you see isolation is sort of almost

like self - self ..... self-defeat.

SELF-DEFEAT?

You understand my point clear.

YES.

Tibet has remained isolated completely. Now that is really

wrong. So in the future, - already in the Chinese - even Chineses

now comparatively they are opening a small door. That is good

sign, that is good. So in the future, .... will be a I think -

how to say - a home of everyone.

HOME OF EVERYONE. THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

And country very beautiful, so if you come - I think you will

enjoy. The country .... beauty I think very marvellous. Now in

Switzerland in some of those European countries, you see, people

usually regard very beautiful, very good scenery. Now in Tibet,

there is a really natural beauty and climate. Of course, it's a

very high altitude.

YES, I KNOW. YOU MUST MISS IT TREMENDOUSLY. YOUR HEART MUST

ACHE FOR TIBET, TO GO BACK.

Yes, sometimes. Not as - just a simple Buddhist monk. As soon

as you become monk, you see literally you isolated or

disconnected with your own family. So that.

SO A BUDDHIST MONK NEVER GETS HOMESICK.

I think is should be like that.

THAT'S THE WAY IT SHOULD BE.

I am you see person who people - entire human - entire human

being - as just I mentioned earlier. One family, one human

family. I am not - I don't find much differences between east

and west and this country and that country. . Always a . . . is

what they show - deep down - all . . .

THANK YOU VERY MUCH, YOUR HOLINESS. I APPRECIATE . . .

Thank you.


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